Thump Towers
Wed, 09/16/2009 - 02:16
I'm really enjoying the game. I thought I'd ask about Thump Towers, as a few people have.
They seem to not do as much damage as the blasters, but are obviously sending out damage 360 degrees. Is that their main benefit? (as well as looking awesome)
I've only played about half the levels, but have found few instances where I'd prefer a Thump Tower over another tower.
Maybe I'm being lazy and not thinking as strategically as I could.
But anyway, I'd love to see a video tutorial (such as the vortex tower one) that highlights strategies for using the Thump Towers effectively.
Cheers,
Greg.
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I agree with you, I'd like to have some hints on why these towers would be more useful than others.
Thanks!
give us some basic info how the tools we use are working -
Dont get me wrong.
I bought the game (actually both) and suppose that deal includes that I own some rights to know whats in my bag.
Fair is fair
The dev answered the thump question with...
Thump towers damage creeps that are near them (next-door hex). Upgrade to make more powerful. Use at end-caps for max effect.
The problem I have it why does the thump tower show such a huge area of effect when placing and upgrading the tower. Shit at level 7 I assumed my thump was hitting 1/4 of the field but it wasn't. If it's only affecting the creep on the hex directly beside a thump tower then why not correct the AoE overlay to show this.
Completely agree!
I've been formatting some of my strategies around thump tower range, it's dissapointing to know that they only hit neighbouring hexs..
Thump towers really are not needed in this game... I put them on my level more for show (cause they look cool) but they are absolutely useless. Oh well, maybe a future update will fix them.
Noooo sir, they are absolutely not useless. Seriously, do these games look like I just do things randomly? :D
Their value is in how you use them. They can be devistating once you figure out how.
I had some ideas about how these could be used (though admittedly, I'm still at work and can't try it out yet):
What if you used Thumps and surrounded the end caps with them? It'd be a "final blow" of pain to the creeps.
Or..why not try to create a path that has a bend/corner in it, and have the corner be composed of thump towers? Then surround the thump towers with blasters and/or missle towers.
!!!!! SPOILER BELOW: Easy, Down the Chute !!!!!
The trick is to make the thump towers touch as many path- hexes is possible. Wrap the path around the tower as suggested above. This way you get more bang for your thump. (cheeseball pun ftw).
While this is not by any means the best way to solve this level, it works, and demonstrates how to use the thumpers.
I would really like an indicator of the Thump towers doing damage. In much the same way they creeps seem to flash when hit by a blaster or by a rocket. Maybe they can flash red. Maybe that's what is really getting people. No indicator of the Thump tower doing any damage. As for myself. Ive been playing around with it and I like it, it makes me feel like I have more variation for different types of strategy.
I definitely agree with more indicators of damage. I place the towers in what I think is good spots but in retrospect it might not be because I just learned that it only goes one hex (rather than how big the circle indicates?). A help screen like some people were talking about would be nice, specifying what exactly the towers do and what the circle represents. Although the circle is very easy to understand for the most part, for the thump and the absorb tower it'd be nice to know exactly what it means.
Great game but could definitely use a few tune ups to perfect it!
Working on it right now in fact!
Nice strategy... I've been experimenting with several (similar but not quite this nice) strategies but I can really only put those thumps down at the end of the level because the cost/damage ratio is a little off.
Thanks for showing this one, giving me some ideas for other levels now.
"While this is not by any means the best way to solve this level, it works, and demonstrates how to use the thumpers."
I realize you are only using this image to show how to use thumpers... but let me illustrate another point.
I took your same exact setup, and instead of thumpers, just replaced them with blasters, and then upgraded the lasers instead, I it leaked less creeps:
The point is that, while thumpers are not "useless," in most cases, you are better off using something else instead. Thumpers are weak, have limited range, and are very slow firing. That's a bad combination. Also, it seems as though the fact that it lets out a round wave of attack actually means that it misses creeps riding the edge of the wave*. Comparatively, the other towers have their own weaknesses, but are overall a better choice almost all the time.
The only reason to use thumpers in most levels are if you need them to kill pulsars when lasers (or snipers) aren't a good option, or in the couple levels that are obviously designed to force you to use thumpers in some capacity (the hatch, thump this, looking glass).
*tangential to this, the thumper might be a better tower if it actually "thumped" rather than "pulsed." That is to say, that every time it thumped, it would instantly do damage to all creeps within its circular range, rather than needing to hit them with a wave. Maybe they actually work out the same, but perceptually it doesn't seem so. For an example, check out the "Bash Tower" in Desktop Tower Defense.
Since the damage seems low (compared to the cost) it would be nice the thumps also performed a slowing action as well. There are a few levels where you have thumps but no shock towers so I could see thumps getting some use if they could slow.
And to your point about letting creeps through on down the chute... thumps vs snipers in the above is no contest. The snipers win hands down. They cost 8 v 10, they upgrade cheaper and they definitely do more damage. I tried down the chute with thumps and they just don't pump out enough damage even when you force the creeps to walk around them.
Believe me, I'm not bitching about the thump towers, I just think something is off with either cost or damage. Maybe bringing the cost down would offset the low damage and hits they do? Or keep the cost the same and add a subtle slow action ... something.
I think my point was missed. I wasn't trying to say the towers are extremely useful or cost effective. They are not. They are expensive, their cost/damage ratio is low, and there are very few situations in which one would be wise to use a thump tower instead of another tower. I whole-heartedly aggree on all of these points.
In my example, I was only trying to create a path shape that would demonstrate where on the path the tower is useful. A big part of build-your-own-path TD games is making the creeps travel as far as possible - and that means lots of switchbacks. The thump towers play well in these switchbacks.
I'm afraid your views on thump towers are just perception based, not fact based. The values are modeled out in great detail.
Like all towers, you have ot use them right or they won't give you the best bang for the buck.
Its like the laser towers... proper usage is very important.
-- David
Hey David,
I understand what you're saying and given that you made the game, you have a bit of cred :-)
My initial post was asking for some kind of tutorial page/video specifically about using the Thump Towers. For me, the one you made for the Vortex Towers helped immensely. I'm sure this does come across as a bit lazy, and maybe it's better to work it through for myself, but it'd be great to see a visual guide from the Creator :-) (when/if you have the time)
I agree, thump towers are not that effective. Would much rather use another type of tower for the added benefit, even when used correctly (i think)
Sorry guys.. I don't mean to be dissagreeable, but you are are just mathmatically incorrect on the thump towers value. I model these things out in great detail.
You don't have to use them if you don't want too (except maybe the Thump This! level where thats the only tower type!) but you are missing out if you do.
The trick is in the fact that, much like the lasers, they do continuous damage to everything in their wake. So... direct creeps into a field of upgraded thump towers, where they are constantly being thump'd... couple with shock towers if you got em and you will do a lot of damage. The secret is to not position them such that creeps only brush against them momentarily.
-- David
Perhaps. But if you have to use multiple extra towers to line up the creeps to be aptly killed by a thumper, then you may have wasted that money that could have been used to purchase more firepower in a better configuration. Also, configuring your maze to use thumpers may restrict your ability to use other towers effectively, such as lasers. It definitely seems that in most levels it is more cost effective to use other towers.
I dunno about everyone else, but I happen to like the thump towers. Though their damage may not be as visible as the others (lasers shooting, bombs exploding) They do seem to work.
It's a new tower! What could be better?!
David I think if you go back and look at all the levels that people are posting about, you'll see that you cannot use shock towers. If you are able to use both together in future levels then I really have no issue with your strategy. Though I will say that in order to fully understand the thump tower it may have been a good idea to give shock towers on the first level you can have thumpers.
I've beaten everything up to medium, and have since gone back to use the thump towers. I've maximized the amount of hexes they cover, and have had poor results. I've used them 5-6 in a row (I have no idea how to take pictures like everyone else, so I can't show you :/) all upgraded to level 7 and still have plenty of creeps getting past me. They do seem to thin the star creeps a bit but they are simply to fast to be totally eliminated by them (which directly related to the lack of shock towers).
I think the biggest problem people are seeing with these is a lack of shock towers. In the level "Down the Chute", the first level with thumpers, you cannot use shock towers.
I understand that you don't do things at random on this game, and trust me it shows. I cannot help to think though that the thump tower just looks better on paper than in the actual game. Now, obviously I don't have the extensive testing time you have had, nor the hard data sheets, but this tower simply doesn't do it's job as well as other towers.
I'm going to assume (based on cost) that the missle tower does more damage than the thump tower. Now consider that the missle tower also fills the AoE niche that the thumper also competes for, and does it much better (a bigger AoE, faster fireing rate, and better chance to hit); in addition to this the missle tower can target things very far away from it. I'll take a missle tower any day!
I continued testing and found that multiple thumpers canceled eachothers attacks; by this I mean that when 2 thumpers are affecting the same hex only one attack is made. I've found that the timeing of placement is the biggest factor with these towers; placing 2 close to each other and having their waves go off simultaniously cancels attacks. Maybe making it so that they only pulse when a creep comes in proximity and fixing the missed creeps on the back end of a wave would fix this outright.
After looking back to your suggestion to clump the thump and add shock towers, I cannot say I understand. They cancel each others attacks and don't have the availability to even use shock towers.
All my thumper testing was done on "Down the Chute".
take a screen shot by pressing the home button and the top "lock/sleep screen" button at the same time! ;) It ends up in your photos.
You say:
"I continued testing and found that multiple thumpers canceled eachothers attacks; by this I mean that when 2 thumpers are affecting the same hex only one attack is made."
But this is not true. They simply do damage to anything the thumper shot (the purple ring) touches. There is no canceling out of anything. In fact, I wouldn't even know how you'd code that. Putting them in arragnements where they cover the same hexes is, in fact, the maximally effective way to use them. Aside from associating them with shock towers.
It is also important to note that it is often the case that different tower are more useful at different stages of the game. Less expesnive towers can be upgraded more cheaply. Thumper Towers have the advantage that, except for poor placement, they cannot miss. A missile tower and even balaster towers can. A fully upgrade Thumper field can be very powerful. And early in the game a few of them can be devistating too, near the exit to maximize score.
Well in any case I'm still seeing some canceled attacks in there. I really don't know how to explain it any other way. I'd take a picture of it happening (thanks for that btw), but it's really not possible to tell from the pictures. I've been timing the pulses so that they stagger and its defiantly correcting the problem I'm having. I honestly don't know what to say about it, if you didn't put it in there then it really shouldn't be happening.
After getting that oddity sorted out I did find them to be very powerful, but I still think they are lacking in that AoE niche I spoke of before (though that is all opinionated).
None of this has kept me from enjoying the game, and I'm happy to say that I have 2 levels left in medium!
You a really are not seeing any canceled attacks. Not sure how you'd even discern that visually even if it was happening, which I absolutely guarantee that it is not.
For the ObjC fluent among you, here is the actual code snippet in question which is essentially the important part of the update method of the ThumpShot class:
[[CreepManager sharedSingleton] getAllEntititesCloseToPoint:&_Position withinRange:_waveRadius/2 butNoCloserThan:lastWaveRadius/2 Result:hits];
float damage = [self getDamage];
for(AbstractCreep* c in hits) {
[c applyDamage:damage];
float clr[4] = {
1.0f, 0.1f, 1.0f, 1.0f
};
[[LightManager sharedSingleton] addLightAt:CGPointMake(c.x, c.y) Range:64 Color:clr LifeSpan:0.2f FadeIn:0 FadeOut:0 Style:LIGHT_STYLE_FLARE_RANDOM];
}
In english, it calls a method to get a list of all creeps who's centroid (center point) was within the radius of the thump shot (which is a ring) from the current frame, but excluding those closer than the ring was last frame. So like a donut, exclude everything not in the yummy donut flesh!
Then, get the amount of damage the shot should do (this method adjusts for level).
Then, loop through each creep that was in this donut shape and apply that amount of damage to it. Also, create a flash of purple light at that spot. This last line is new in the 1.1 update.
There is no cancelation of the effect based on overlapping rings or anything like that.
-- David
Looking at your code I just ask myself what happens to creeps that move faster than the thump waves ?:) They seem to skip the donut altogether. On the other hand, creeps moving away from the thump tower with exactly the speed of the thump could - if having a really good starting position - "ride the wave", getting hit every frame
Am I missing something? Apart from this effects not happening if the thumps are always significantly faster the the creeps, of course, but I've seen creeps moving at the speed of light, at least!
Best regards, Tobias
P.s.: I'm already loving the idea of having the thumps actually "bumping" the creeps (every so often)
I'm afraid there actually is a bug in the code that you posted - or not so much in the code, but in the algorithm. What's happening here is a collision test between a moving point and an expanding donut (creep centroid and donut area), and the problem is that it's not robustly dealing with a special case - that if you're simply checking overlap, the objects may pass through each other entirely between overlap checks and never trigger a "hit".
Imagine the following situation, using generic units:
Frame N: The current radius of the ThumpShot is 1, and the previous radius is .5 The Creep's centroid is currently at radius 1.1, but is heading towards the thumper at .15 radii/frame. Since the Creep is not within the .5-1 radius interval, there is no hit.
Frame N+1: The current radius of the ThumpShot is now 1.5, and the previous radius is 1. The Creep's centroid is now at radius .95. Since the Creep is not within the 1-1.5 interval, there is no hit.
Diagram key: The black dot is the centroid of a Creep. The red stripey ring is the "donut" that is currently being checked. Both the size of the ring and the movement of the centroid are being exaggerated for clarity - the most likely case where this is occuring is probably when the creep's centroid is one pixel outside of the ring in one frame and one pixel inside the frame in the next.
Note that the Creep's centroid is not within the donut in either frame.
This is likely to occur especially often with speedy creeps, but in theory could happen to nearly any Creep that ends up just outside the radius in one frame - even a small movement closer to the center can take it within the radius of the last ThumpShot.
To verify that this is happening, I did a test on "Down The Chute", configuring the starting grid with just a single thumper as follows: From the last acceleration pad by the entrance chute, I placed the thumper two hexes out in the direction of the bottom-right edge. This results in a situation where the creeps are traveling towards the center of the thumper (and hence decreasing their radius) for nearly an entire hex (they're out of range for part of the time). I also placed a bunch of towers near the exit to buy a bit more time to watch.
If you watch this situation for several waves, you should see several Creeps that are clearly having their centroid pass through the wave which are escaping without a scratch. Since the bug is timing dependent, it could potentially take a few tries to encounter this (though it actually seemed to be occuring on a relatively high % of hits in which the creep was approaching the Thumper's center). It's actually easiest to spot on the slower moving creeps, as they spend more time approaching the thumper's center.
Since roughly 50% of Thumper hits should be on creeps moving toward it rather than away from it, depending on how often this bug is hit (and unfortunately, it's being hit pretty often from my non-scientific observations) it could be severely negatively impacting Thumper damage. I would be willing to bet that it's also responsible for some of the observations of "Thumper Wave Nullification".
(Going to crosspost this to the support forum in case David doesn't get back to this particular thread)
Interesting. This is sort of what I was talking about when I mentioned above that sometimes creeps seemed to "ride the wave" and not get hit. My suggested solution was to do away with "waves" altogether, and just have everything within range be instantly damaged every thump.
p.s. David, can you please do away with this "nesting comment" format and just go with everything flat? It's kind of ridiculous that the more comments there are the smaller and smaller the horizontal space for them becomes.
One thing I didn't put into the original post - as Elysium originally posted, it's also possible for this bug to result in a Creep being double (or even triple) hit by a single wave if they're headed away from the Thumper's center (The "riding of the wave"). This means that the part where I say that this hurts the Thump Tower's damage output is actually innacurate. Since a Creep is probably spending just as much time heading away from the tower, the chance for double damage should offset the misses.
Due to this, the net effect of this bug on a Thumper's aggregate damage output should actually be neutral - but what it does do is make the damage much less consistent.
Of course, another reason for some of the issues with the Thump Tower's is simple that because the hit detection works on the centroid of the Creep, there will often be points at which a wave looks like it intersects a creep, but since the centroid of the creep is never overlapped, the creep isn't hit. When you add in the limited range of the wave (even if a Creep is in a neighboring hex, there are a number of spots in the hex that won't get hit by the wave) it means that the Thumper doesn't really have much coverage at all. The cells in which creeps enter range and exit range are particularly affected.
I think that when a Creep seems to ride the wave and not get hit, that's probably more due to the overlap test using the centroid than this bug - the centroid is staying *just* ahead of the wave. Since the Creep is probably moving away if it's riding the wave, if it was encountering the bug it would be taking extra damage, not avoiding damage.
The secret is to not position them such that creeps only brush against them momentarily.
This really helped me understand how to use them. Now I think of them as the opposite of the laser tower...
- use laser towers to hit creeps in a nice, straight line.
- use thump towers to hit creeps when they 'round' a corner.
Dang, I was just using them in straight lines to create my maze. Now that I'm putting them where it's hitting 4+ empty hexes where the creeps walk past, they work really well!
I was struggling with this level for a couple of days and found this to be an oddly effective way to complete it.
This is far from the most organised or efficient way of doing things (or pretty for that matter). But I didn't lose a life. And didn't need to upgrade a single tower.
I wanted to see if I could replicate what Elysium did for the other thumper strategy above, and it worked really well:
When is the game creator going to admit there isn't a single level where they are more effective than other tower combinations, apart from the levels he specifically created which forbids you to buy either blue or red ones?
That you can beat levels multiple ways? That's how it's designed.
I had a guy who's sole focus was to beat ever level with exactly one type of tower (assuming it existed on that level). He nearly pulled it off.
If you don't like to use thump towers, don't use them. It's a free country, as they say. :)
I play lots of TD games where I avoid specific towers just because I feel they are useless... but I know other people who play thinking the tower I favor is useless.
In any case, there is no possible way they can change (even if they needed to change) or every level that has them would break and have to be rebalanced and everything about highscores would be invalidated. The only thing that can change is the cost of them... in new levels only... which we adjust for every level as it is.
I know tilhe actual range is limited to adjacent hexes, but what does the large radius around them when placing or selecting them represent? Is that just a bug?
Well seeing as how they're continuously active, I'd say the large blue radius is useless but with the new update 1.1 to swarm that David has announced I'm sure that from now on the thump towers will activate when creeps enter this field. So for now it's pretty useless but not so much with the update.
Since Itunes Connect won't let me upload anything, and thus putting the 1.1 Update out the door is delayed...
I've made a slight power adjustement to the Thumpers... in the form of a new abilty. A Thump "shot", the ring that goes out from the Thumper, has a small chance to occasionally "stun" a creep. This momentarily stops it in its tracks, and then it has to get going again. The odds of this happening go up with the level of the tower, and of course each "ring" is an independent shot so that increases the chances too. It's a small difference, but when a creep does get stunned it tends to be a really good thing for killng it. :)
Though subtle, the change does increase their power. And I have to be very careful not to increase it much due to the imbalancing of the levels and invalidation of the scores. The goal is to make it perceptably more useful, without unbalancing anything.
-- David
Yes, the range circle is inaccurate to the extent that this is the range it starts thumping, but not how far the shot reaches. Which could be confusing, so I'll fix that too.
-- David
The problem I have with thumpers is that if a creep goes through a thump maze at the right timing it lock into a "beat" and waltz right by your thumpers. I think this is why people see reduced damage.
Solution: Make the thumpers SMARTER!!!!! make it so that they fire like other towers at a creep within range
thumps def has some really good uses infact I use them a lot and have completed every level in the game without having to juggle or what ever. they hit all sides at the same time where as some other tower would be focusing on one direction or one creep. I'm working on the highest score for the last hard level atm and thumps are def a must must have imho
"I'm working on the highest score for the last hard level atm and thumps are def a must must have imho"
Yes, but this has FAR more to do with the fact that you need to deal with repulsars, and thump towers are your only viable option because of how cheap they are, than whether or not thump towers are useful in the same sense as the other towers are.
If thumpers were comparatively that cheap in all the other levels they would be extremely useful from cost/damage ratio point of view and no one would be saying anything (well, they'd be saying "they seem kind of weak, but they are cheap so they work really well!").
I hit 2 billi last night on crazy 88's and I had like 30,000$ left over. I was not even sure what to spend it on.. that far into an endless level $$$ aint even close to an issue, they were still very very usefull. They were very helpful in reaching the 200+ waves though for there cost
and yes they are mostly for the pesky repulsars :D
side note: I'm about to make a post asking about the best possible tower if money was not an issue. Is it the electrical towers? I'm still not real sure on how they work exactly, does there effect stack? Have not had the time to fully test this ish out
I'm not talking about far into the level, I'm talking about EARLY in the level. You want to START the level getting as many +20s and +50s as you can, when you don't have the money to buy lasers or shock towers because they are prohibitively expensive in this particular level.
I read this thread because I was having a hard time using these towers effectively. On the last level of "easy," I found an incredibly good use for them. From what Dave was saying, if you make it so that creeps have to spend more than 1 or 2 hexes around a thumper tower, it's really beneficial to use them.
You guys can comment on my build strategy - it was my first time playing the level, but I think I did really well, and the thumper towers definitely came in handy for slightly slowing the enemy units and forcing the units around a "snake".
I finished at level 132. Comments are appreciated!