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Score Calculations

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Narroc
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So, I'm not a defintive source by any means, but I thought I'd offer some commentary on the way the scoring system works in GeoDefense. I first noticed it when my fiance and I kept taking turns playing the game on vacation; I noticed it because her scores were phenominally better than mine, and yet I never seemed to have any trouble beating any of the maps, and she did. As a result, I started toying with it, and so far as I can tell, the modifier works on the following principles:

+1 for a kill

+5-50 for kills, increasing in magnitude as the creep approaches the end point.

+? I'm not positive that there's not a modifier for large-group kills. I really hadn't bothered to test it, because if there is, it's not substantial, compared to the ones above.

The reason I wanted to comment on it is this: the simple truth about the scoring system is that the more risk you take, the more score you get. Everything else is secondary, or even irrelevant. I've played the same mission repeatedly so that I spent every penny, or spent only the minimum, and it doesn't affect the score. The number of lives you lose doesn't seem to have any effect on the score either, and it simply exists more as a status symbol for scoring purposes. So if I put fifty lasers two feet from the end-point, I get a multiplier of like 6,000 or so, but if I put eight carefully positioned and tiered lasers along the path, never letting the creeps get more than a percentage of the map toward the end, I get a multiplier of...however many creeps there are. No more. To me, this sounds like a scoring system that needs adjustment. If I'm not going to be rewarded for saving money, or placing items more than two inches from the end point, why ever use any other strategy?

What about a weighted system, where the amount of money left is directly added to the multiplier? Or a multiplier that goes down the further any creep makes it, and another multiplier that goes down based on the 'average' distance the creeps as a whole made it during the map. That way if one lone guy gets close to the end and then buys it, you still get a nice bonus if you stop the other 99% at the entrance. Just as importantly, have a multiplier that reduces your score based on the number of lives lost, simply by dividing the deaths into the total lives, and multiplying the score by that percentage. To work toward the existing system, provide multiplier bonuses for taking out groups with a single missle or laser, so that the tightly entrenched player still has a way to raise his score.

Something needs to reward players who are conservative in their spending, and calculating in their placement of turrets. More importantly, it needs to do it just as well as the existing concept of giving players huge arbitrary multiplier values for last-second saves.

Thoughts?

anders
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 Admit it, you're just

 Admit it, you're just whining because your fiance gets more points than you ;)

No, seriously, I totally agree. While I haven't really cared so much about the score as actually clearing the levels, the scoring system doesn't seem very well designed. I would like a re-think of the whole system, to reward clever strategies better. (Killing the creeps late: not very clever or interesting strategy)

Rega
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I'd have to disagree there. 

I'd have to disagree there.  Killing creeps late requires a good strategy otherwise the creeps would just run straight through the level and you would lose.  I think the scoring system works well as it was mostly what had me back playing the same levels over and over trying to beat my highscore.  The late multipliers make it more challenging to get a higher score and push you to take more of a risk which I found made the game a lot more enjoyable.

nsxdavid
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Scoring

I've commented on the scoring system in several other threads here...

But essentially its a multiplier based system.

Talke a look here: http://criticalthoughtgames.com/node/39#comment-118

You can see how it does reward risk very cleverly.  And weighted heavily so.

Narroc
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I can see the merit of the

I can see the merit of the risk vs reward system, but when it really comes down to it, it really only rewards stacking as many possible towers at the last second as possible. A lot of the criticism I've seen regarding strategy in GD is that with the update to the shock towers, stacked defense simply becomes a matter of jamming laser towers and shock towers into the end zone. Indeed, it's the only reliable way I can find to increase my high scores, simply by moving the towers a few pixels at a time toward the end zone each time I play a map again, until I'm finally "too" far, at which point random chance is as big a factor as anything else. My thoughts on a more complex scoring system came mostly from having played Defense Grid on the PC. The game itself has more complex rules for scoring, some of which is actually based on your resource management, your lives remaining, and your general performance in the map. I find that it generates a much more widely spread top players board, as people experiment and try new tactics.

For the resource management, it actually works like interest in a bank account. Starting at a certain stage and above, you gain interest on your available resources; the more you have banked, the greater your interest payout is with each 'tick' of the clock, which is every few seconds. In addition, for each tick that you go without spending ANY money, the interest percentage itself increases very slightly, and resets once you finally spend money. That particular trade-off grants its own unique risk vs reward scenario, but can be dynamic to each player's individual play style, much more so than just cramming towers in around Point X or Point Y. Different strategies allow different rates of upgrade, versus just adding one more shock tower every few waves. Players also get partial credit for the resources spent on the towers they buy, as well. There's risk/reward calculation in that system, in that you can actually get more money by buying lots of small towers and not upgrading them, than you can by building a few key towers and powering them up strongly. The lower amount spent is actually banked, and presumably gains interest, raising the resource calculation into the score at the end.

Scoring based on lives works as a direct multiplier. After all other calculations, the total score is multiplied by the number of remaining lives, resulting in your final score. This directly impacts bad performance, whereas as far as I can tell in GD, lives only matter so long as you still have one at the end of the map. The only real tradeoff for lives is that you miss the chance for a +50 multiplier, plain and simple. Then again, that tradeoff only matters if you're end-camping.

It's mostly just food for thought. I just found it odd that the better you actually do, the worse you score, unless you play by the sole concept of camping the end point as closely as possible. At that point, it's less about strategy than it is about overloading the nearby space as much as possible. I prefer scoring systems which take ALL types of gameplay into account, and reward good performance versus bad, not just smart and risky versus everything else.

GO GO Gadget PWN
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  the reason I like the

 

the reason I like the current scoring system is that each level provides three very unique challenges:

1) beat the level

2) beat the level perfectly (no creeps through)

3) get as high a score as possible

Each goal presents a very unique challenge requiring you to think much differently than the other two. It's like each level can be a different game depending on how you play it.

Narroc
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Except that the same exact

Except that the same exact strategy will solve all three challenges at the same time. Stacking lasers and shock turrets right beside the exit will accomplish the first two, and it's simply how many and how fast of each you build in the exact same spot that accomplishes the third, in order to keep letting them get a little closer and closer. The problems is that no other strategy AT ALL will reward you for points except stacking turrets at the exit.

It would be nice if creativity would be rewarded at some degree beyond the concept of 'how many laser turrets fit around the edge of the end point?' IE, why not give points for utterly defeating the waves at the entrance before they even have a chance to move more than a bit of distance into the screen? This is harder than the end point, because there's only so much room for shock turrets at the start. Offer points for taking them out in huge groups all at once with a single shot, or for different combinations of turrets taking out the units in different ways, etc. Offer points for doing the map with all missile turrets, or for no upgrades, etc. Make some unique challenges, instead of just "kill them at the last pixel."

There's a very telling post on the Youtube video for The Eye, of a player commenting on the fact that he beat every single level solely using lasers and shock turrets, and that no other strategy was ever needed, until that map.

Elysium
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My feelings are that 1) you

My feelings are that 1) you should be rewarded for beating a level perfect (all lives retained).  2) No player that does NOT beat a level perfect should get a higher score than a player that DOES beat a level perfect, or at the very least, leaking a life should be a SERIOUS impediment to your score (as I suggested on TA, losing half your current multiplier, or perhaps a less severe -50x for each creep leaked).

Furthermore the Novice player that barely squeaks by levels, leaking most of their lives (and "accidentally" getting high multipliers for some kills) should not be able to score higher than the Mid-Level player that is good enough that he doesn't leak most creeps or beats levels perfect.  This is a serious flaw in the scoring system in my opinion.

I can understand why he wants to reward "risk," but in my opinion, this solution:

should not be beating this solution in score:

nsxdavid
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Reward Risk?

You don't understand rewarding risk?  Really?  I mean that's a pretty fundemental concept!

The bigger the risk you take the greater your reward should be... kind of hard to even figure out how to explain something so... basic. 

But for the sake of argument, let's say we did it your way, and reward "perfect" play and didn't do the whole rewarding risk thing.  Well a "perfect" game in your book is finishing a level without losing lives.  Okay, fine.  So guess what happens?  Everyone who finishes the map without losing a single life would have exactly the same score.  Because they would kill exactly the same number of creeps to do it and lose exactly zero lives; thus however you rewarded that (or penalized losing a life), the results of a perfect game are exactly the same.  And your leaderboard would look pretty flat.... since you only get on the leaderboard if you beat a level... every single person on the leaderboard for a given level would have exactly the same score.

That, my friend, would be a "serously flawed" design. ;)

-- David

 

 

Elysium
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First of all, I said

First of all, I said I CAN understand rewarding risk.  Reading is a pretty, fundamental concept.  

Second, there other other ways to differentiate scores.  Just for example, there are various ways you could reward tower efficiency, such as rewarding multiplier for money left over at the end, or for how many towers you used total (less towers = bigger bonus).  One of the suggestions in the original post seems interesting:  have creeps near the entrance be worth 1x multiplier, and as they enter the map a certain amount is subtracted from their multiplier for each second they are in the map before killing them.  Again just for example, say .1x per second.  So if you haven't killed the creep after 5 seconds you only get .5x or less when you kill it.  Such a system would also have the added bonus of penalizing juggling.  Another system that other TD games have is score bonuses for sending waves early, or even sending multiple waves at the same time.  Currently the system delays you from sending a wave early, and you can't send more than 1 at once.  If you are so awesome at the game that you can send 5 waves at once, getting a large score bonus for doing so would differentiate your score from others who beat the level with all lives saved but needed the extra time to kill each wave individually.

Third, there is no reason why you can't reward "perfect" wins and penalize "imperfect" wins while retaining your risk system.

And no, I don't think it would be a "flawed design" to simply have a perfect score for a level.  Fieldrunners did it just fine.  If you beat a level without selling any towers and without losing any lives, which is quite hard to do by the way, you have acheived the perfect score for that level.  There is nothing wrong with that.

Narroc
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You completely avoided

You completely avoided addressing any of the half dozen or so alternate methods for calculating additional score that I proposed, ALL of which would greatly impact the score for each player, removing a uniformly even score board. Elysium even proposed a new scoring system regarding multiple waves, though I can see why you might have avoided that idea, since packed lasers can kill fifty units as well as five, making it too easy.

I urge you to take a look at Defense Grid's scoring system. It's much more in-depth, and the results speak for themselves.

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